OWIE was born in 1941, brought up in 
Little Rock, Arkansas, and bt Louis, 
Missouri, and began playing at the 
age of five. At sixteen he led a youth 
group in St. Louis and used to 
practice his trumpet by an open 
window in the hope that Louis 
Armstrong might pass by and 
discover him. 
After military service he worked with 
r&b bands and also with his wife, 
singer Fontella Bass. He played on 
r&b sessions for Chess Records and 
also helped to form BAG (Black 
Artists Group) and the Great Black 
Music Orchestra in St Louis. In 1996 
he moved to Chicago, got involved 
with AACM, Association for the 
Advancement of Creative Music, and 
joined the band of saxophonist Roscoe 
Mitchell. In the later 1960s he and 
Mitchell were founder-members of the 
Art Ensemble Of Chicago, one of the 
key groups of the 1970s and '80s. In 
1969 Bowie recorded with Archie 
Shepp, Sunny Murray, Jimmy Lyons 
and Cecil Taylor, among others. He 
has also done intermittent solo 
projects and recordings over the years 
He composed, conducted and 
at the 1970 Frankfurt jazz festival. In 
1974 he toured Senegal, performing 
with African drummers and in 1979 
played a New York concert with his 
59-piece Sho Nuff Orchestra. He has 
also recorded with Jack Dejohnette 
and Fela Kuti. 
GR: How do you define jazz and what is this emphasis on Great Black music? 
Inter vie - with Lester Bowie was 
recorded in September, 1997 in 
Brooklyn, New York. 
African Quarterly 
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Vol 2 No 2 GLENDORA
L.B: You see, Jazz is Great Black 
music, justas Gospel and Afrobeatis 
great black music. 
What we are trying to do today by the 
term great black music is to put emphasis on 
the quality of music that Black people have 
created in this world. I mean this music is so 
great that each one of its subdivisions has 
influenced the whole world... rock n roll, 
blues, jazz, gospel, each one is a division of 
this music but actually all coming from the 
same thing. The thing about jazz is that it 
fuses all these different elements together. In 
fact, jazz is becoming the first world music. 
It is the contemporary music of this planet at 
this time Therefore, it is very important for 
our people to know that out of everything 
happening to us on the planet, we have still 
maintained the pinnacle of culture. We still 
have that, this civilising force, this music. Our 
art has survived because there was a time 
when we were running this planet, another 
time when yellow people were running it, 
everyone has had their time but our culture 
has survived and is still influencing the culture 
of today We just do not realise it... just like 
in Zaire, they go in there and take everything 
out of Zaire, not leaving nothing which is 
exactly what is happening to music, they take 
from the music and we ourselves do not 
realise the power that we have. So what we 
try to do with our music is to make people 
aware of the power of the music and the 
power it represents as far as how we can 
influence our thinking because in Africa art 
was not separated from life, it was a part of 
it, you learn from the culture. This is how you 
learned how to think, the ceremonies, the 
rituals, the whole sequence of growth to 
maturity but you see we have gotten away 
from that. The Western world says that art is 
something you put on the wall... art for art's 
sake! You see art has got to have meaning, 
there must be a connection, it has to be a part 
of our every day lives, we are supposed to 
learn from our culture, it is not something we 
see and just go dancing. Why are we dancing? 
What is the history of dance? What 
does it mean? We have to see how it connects 
to our lives, then we can apply it to our 
lives, consequently we will think much better 
and more clearly and hopefully we can get 
something done. So, Great Black music is the 
total embodiment of our music... and what we 
in jazz have done is to try to bring all these 
different elements together because they were 
all separated. Fortherewasatimewhen I was 
growing up, black people listened to all kinds 
of music, rhythm, blues, Duke Ellington. Which 
is why we in Brass Fantasy, we in our music 
bring back all sorts of things that they do not 
want us to do, bringing back reggae, we have 
good Marley stuff. But we really want to show 
the importance of this because you know 
music inspires you to think, it enhances your 
intelligence, it gets the real blues in your head. 
I was speaking to Sun Ra and he says people 
were asking him why his music gives people 
a headache... Sun Ra says you know when 
you run and have not run for a long time.. your 
legs become sore, he says this is the same 
thing with your head, people have not been 
using their brains so when they hear my music 
their head starts hurting. Of course, because, 
his music is stimulating, which is what it is all 
about. 
GR: I am glad you mention Sun Ra. As there 
is a new publication about him and his early 
life... Sun Ra was always made to be an 
eccentric. You knew him, what kind of man 
was he? 
LB: Sun Ra was definitely for real. Sun Ra was
great. Sun Ra wentfrom the 30's with Fletcher 
Henderson's music to today and he never 
tried to be commercial and was always into 
the music, he was into space, into thought, 
language, culture-Sun Ra inspired us, he was 
like our father. We would watch Sun Ra in 
those days and say to ourselves, oh! Sun Ra 
was doing these things and we saw him 
continue all the way to the time he died, 
always looking forward never looking back. 
He had done more, because if you study an 
average musician, they usually may do something 
in their 30's and for the rest of their lives 
probably do something that sounds like that. 
In Sun Ra's case he went from the 30's, 40's, 
50's, 60's, 70'%, 80's and 90's and was all 
the time creating new stuff. 
GR: Does this have anything to do with 
genius? I recall that great musicians like Miles 
Davis, Fela, Coltrane, they never went back 
into the music per se, they never repeat their 
stuff. 
LB: You must realise that there is no reason to 
go back. You do not go back, you have got to 
go forward which is the problem we have 
now with the music... you seethe whiteman is 
trying to turn the music backwards. He has got 
all these young boys running around trying to 
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Vol 2'No 2 
play like they are Miles Davis and there is 
nothing happening. 
GR: What was the concept behind the AACM 
of Chicago because I know you are not from 
Chicago. 
LB: No, I am from St. Louis but lived in 
Chicago when we first started the collective 
AACM. The AACM was put together so we 
could play the music that we felt. 
GR: Who were the originators? 
LB. Originally they were, Muhal Richard 
Abrams, Malachi Flavors, Jodi Christian and 
Phillip Cochrane. They came out of an experimental 
band that Richard Abrams had in 
1961 which was sort of an outgrowth of a 
concept that Sun Ra had in the 50's. Richard 
Abram started this experimental band because 
Sun Ra had left Chicago by then to the 
East Coast, to probably New York/Philadelphia. 
So, out of this experimental band grew 
the AACM, which was officially chartered in 
1 965. The idea behind this organisation was 
to be able to keep our music intact, to be able 
to develop our music, to be able to research 
our music and at the time no one was allowing 
us to do this. So we decided that if we get 
together, we could organise ourselves to
present our own concerts, get a place where 
we could develop and practice our arrangements 
and make music that means something 
and carry on this concept we are talking 
about. 
GR: How did you guys plan to make records, 
since you were all rebelling against the system? 
What labels were you dealing with? 
LB: We started off with some companies in the 
US, with a company called Delmark and 
another called Nesa, where we recorded 
before we left for Europe. After getting to 
Europe we sjarted with the European companies 
in '69. So we started in 1 965, my band 
the Art Ensemble of Chicago made their first 
record in 1966, that is, the Roscoe Mitchell 
Sextet. 
GR: You mean the original Art Ensemble of 
Chicago? 
LB: Oh huh... it was me, Roscoe Mitchell, 
M'alachi Flavors, a drummer Phillip Wilson 
before Famadou Don Moye joined us in 
1970. We had drummer Phillip Wilson for a 
while but he left to join Paul Butter Field's Blues 
Band in 1969, so for a while we played 
without a drummer and maintained this situation 
until we got to Europe. 
GR: You played without a drummer. Was this 
part of the concept? It sounds unlike the jazz 
we know. 
LB: Yeah! well the concept was that the music 
did not depend upon any specific instrumentation. 
It was about the feeling and the spirit 
of what we were doing. A spirit of music that 
did not depend on whether we had a trumpet 
etc, the spirit of the music transcended all the 
instrument details and formats possible. 
GR. What was the idea behind the masks and 
drama? 
LB. The mask is an outgrowth of the African 
tradition. When you do the mask, you become... 
you*are not yourself any more. You 
become part of the music and the mask is the 
same with the white lab coat I wear. We all do 
something special to become part of the 
music, like in an African ceremony. It is just 
part of the art, the music. That is the whole 
idea, we just wanted to become part of the 
music. 
GR. So, we can say that the AACM had the 
issue of their African heritage as a focus. It 
was not about playing fine ballroom tunes but 
going back to the roots... 
LB: Yeah! right, going back to the roots of 
everything. It is not just about music which is 
the problem with what we have now. Music is 
life and not just about hearing a certain 
amount of songsand learning a certain repertoire 
and bang! then you think you are a 
musician. That has nothing to do with jazz, 
which is why these young guys are not playing 
anything. There is no feeling no soul to 
what they are doing. 
GR: So, going back to the AACM. 
LB: Yeah! it began to evolve, different groups 
grew and we all started working together and 
we really started to develop the music. I mean 
I became the president of the AACM in 1 968 
and had concerts every night. We just did not 
care whether at concerts we had one person 
or two people, we did concerts every night 
and rehearsed all day and had all kinds of 
When you do the mask, you are not 
yourself anymore. You become part of the 
music and the mask is the same with the 
white lab coat I wear. We all do something 
special to become part of the music. 
audience respond? 
LB. Oh, we had a great audience in Chicago, 
as they all understood what we were doing. 
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different groups and combinations. We 
organised ourselves so that we could research 
the music. We were reading, studying, 
playing and teaching kids hanging over... 
it was not about us doing songs, we were 
trying to make everything relate to the whole 
situation at the time, we wanted to show that 
if you wanted to get something done, you had 
to do it yourself, you just cannot wait for 
someone to give you something. 
GR. What was the reaction? How did the 
Vol. 2/No. 2 GLENDORA
A small, but great audience, very enthusiastic. 
As the word started to get out, we started to go 
out to spread this thought around the world. 
GR: From Chicago, I take it you moved to 
Europe? 
LB: Yes, in '69 we moved to Paris. 
GR: What was the response like to your music 
in Europe? 
LB: I tell you, before we left to Europe we were 
working about four concerts a year with the 
Art Ensemble of Chicago, that is, i n the US you 
have to understand we were not playing in 
the acceptable format and they knew we were 
about something also, that we were about 
something meaningful! 
Music is very difficult and when you start 
talking about getting into jazz, it takes a lot 
of studying and a lot of practise. So, yes it 
is easier to go commercial but for some of 
us, serious stuff is the only way. 
GR: This is always the problem. 
LB: Yeah! Always is. But we got to Paris and 
after three days, we were playing in a theatre 
six nights a week. 
GR: What then is the difference between the 
European and American audience? 
LB: The difference is simple. There were no 
black people over there. Which means they 
can learn from it. They do not need to worry 
about this problem of waking up the 20/30 
million people of this country. In the US the 
authority is afraid of waking these people up. 
Because we are asleep. Black people are 
asleep and they do not want us to wake up. 
Do not stimulate their minds. But in Europe, 
they do not have the Black people. When I am 
in Europe, they ask, well isn't it better over 
here for your music? I answer by saying, well 
if you have 30 million blacks over here we will 
see how much music you'll like then. You 
know! So it is not that they are any different, 
it is just that they do not have to worry, they 
African Quarterly 
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Vol. 2/No 2 GLENDORA, 
can benefit from the music. 
GR: How then do you African-American jazz 
musicians deal with this attitude? Does it make 
your music more progressive? 
LB: It is difficult and very, very frustrating 
because we have to really concentrate and 
focus to even stay on the music because you 
have everything saying to your face, don't do 
it... it is not worth it. 
GR: Do you then blame fellow musicians that 
go popular and commercial? This is a problem 
we face with musicians in Africa particularly in 
Nigeria where they refuse to practise with 
their instruments but go for the quick buck. 
LB: Yeah! Yeah! Right! Well you see it is 
because they are afraid. Music is very difficult 
and when you start talking about getting into 
jazz, it takes a lot of studying and a lot of 
practise. So, yes it is easier to go commercial 
but for some of us, serious stuff is the only way. 
I am not interested in just being commercial. I 
have done very well. I have my family who 
have been very supportive. I am not making a 
lot of commercial money but we survive and 
can continue just like this. 
GR: Who is Joseph Bowie, any relation of 
yours? Are you from a musical family? 
LB: That is my brother, my youngest brother. 
My father, 92 years old, was a high school 
band director for many years and played 
trumpet, his father played trombone and his 
father before him played the organ, so music 
has been in my family. Both my brothers are 
musicians and my father's brothers were musicians. 
So, it is in the blood. Even in slavery, in 
the 1 800's whenever there was an affair it 
would be members of my family getting a 
band together. 
GR: How do you respond to Contemporary 
African Music? How does your technical ear 
and mind respond? 
LB: We can hear all the connections, as jazz 
is an African music, you see music is not 
necessarily a set of defined rules of songs or 
rhythms, it is a whole concept. You have to 
respond when you hear African music, there is 
a connection. If you notice, Dizzy Gillespie
made the connection between Afro-Cuban 
music and brought credit to the music. There 
was the AACM dojng the whole African 
thing. All of a sudden, theseguysgot paint on 
their faces and masks and were trying to say 
yes, we are real, we are proud of our heritage, 
this is our culture, we are proud of Africa 
and they have kept us separated for so long, 
we have to get it together and so we have 
started to bring it back into the music, to show 
just how African this is and in turn Africa 
would look at what we're doing and say oh! 
man so that is how you have to develop. I 
remember I used to tell Fela. I used to say man! 
you need more time to practise. But you see 
he had all these wives and people around him 
and a lot of responsibility. He did not have the 
time, I mean he really wanted to spend time on 
his saxophones. When we were together we 
practised but he really wanted to spend more 
time to develop his music more than he did, 
because he knew the power of the music and 
that was what he was doing, he was using his 
music as a Way to bring people together and 
look at how many people are into Fela now, 
you know what I mean? 
GR: Hm. Fela. It's difficult not to digress to 
Fela. You were in Lagos. What brought you to 
Nigeria? 
LB: Spirit! its the spirit. I just woke up and went 
to Lagos. That's it! I did not know anyone in 
Lagos at all... You see! I have this thing, 
usually I'd do things when I want to do 
something... 
GR: What year was that? 
LB: This was like 1977, the year, I think right 
after Festac and I had always wanted to go 
to Africa. This was my first time. We had 
been trying to get gigs in Africa man! for 
about 20 years... we had played France, 
Italy and over... I said I'm gonna go, fuck it! 
I don't have any money, but I will get a one 
way ticket and go. I had a 1 00 dollars when 
I got off the plane and I went to Hotel Bobby. 
Somebody said stay at Hotel Bobby. I spent 
10 dollars to get to Hotel Bobby, when I got 
there the room was 50 dollars so I had enough 
money for one night. It was about 10 o'clock 
at night then and I did not know anyone at all, 
no idea, no way back home and no more 
money. So I went up to the restaurant at Hotel 
Bobby and asked for something to eat and 
they tried to give me something like fried rice, 
I said I did not come all the way to Africa to 
eat fried rice. I said what do they eat here and 
just at that moment I saw somebody in the 
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kitchen eating... I said what are they eating 
back there? Oh! they said, that is African 
food, you cannot eat this. Then I said bring me 
some of that shit... but its hot!... I said I love 
hot pepper, bring some of that stuff. So after 
eating we started talking and I told them my 
situation. So one of them said you came all the 
way over here and you do not have any 
money. Just to see! You have got to go see 
Feb. So the next day I asked how much was 
the fare? They said you just get a taxi and tell 
them to take you to Fela and so I got a cab and 
went to Fela. At the time Fela was staying at 
Crossroads hotel because they had burnt the 
house down. The cab pulls up at the Crossroads, 
so I get out my horns, I had a couple 
records and some little shit to show who I was 
African Quarterly 
on (he Arts 
They are not reviving anything. Music has 
to be contemporary, it has to be up to 
date. It has to relate to today which is what 
the whole jazz is about. It is not about a 
repertoire, which is what they are saying 
where everybody learns these songs and 
technique and chord. You know! music 
with no soul, how can you play music with 
no soul? Music is soul. 
and a little guy comes up to me and says hey 
man! what have you got in there you look like 
a trumpeter, he said where are you from? I 
said New York... you play jazz? I said yeah! 
GR: Who was this asking you? 
LB: I forget his name, he used to play guitar for 
Fela's band. He said well er... so you play 
jazz then! And I said well er yeah. He said 
you must be heavy and I said well you 
know... a little bit... he then said well you have 
come to the right place. I asked why is that 
and he said because we are the baddest 
band in Africa (laughs). From there he took 
me to see Fela. Fela came out, he was 
sleeping. Now Fela knew about me from 
when he was living in Los Angeles. Fela says 
hey! Lester Bowie! He tells the guy to go get 
his record player and he had on this record 
that you know would play just the rhythm 
section; he had the saxophone on and so he 
GLENDORA. Vol. 2/No. 2 
wanted to see how I could play so man he put 
it on and you know me man I'm telling you I 
don't know anybody! and I'm playing my 
fucking horn... man! Bam! and after I played 
about a minute Fela said stop! and said to the 
guys, go to the hotel and get his bags, he's 
moving in with me... (laughter). So, I was 
Fela's only guest for the next six months. I was 
with him through all the trials, up until he was 
exiled to Ghana. We were playing all the 
time and made three records together. 
GR: What was it like being with him? What 
was the experience like? 
LB: Oh! it helped me so much. Fela was cool, 
he was really cool... you see one thing about 
me and musicians is that if they are really 
serious and honest to themselves I'll never 
really have any problem with them. Fela and 
I hit it off from the beginning and Fela would 
say, you have come to Africa; okay I'm 
gonna teach you how to be African, man! I'm 
gonna show you what it is like. You want to 
come over here, you want to get a band or 
whatever... I'm going to show you everything 
you need to know about being an African 
man. So, that is what I learnt. I sat and 
watched Fela through all the shit, all the wives 
and everything. I mean I learnt a whole lot by 
just watching him. That's why when I came 
back I got married again to just one wife... 
(laughs) because up until then I always thought 
I needed to have two wives. I learned a lot, got 
to hang with all the people... I mean his mum 
was still alive then too. She had a hip disorder 
because they threw her out the window... but 
she was still alive and so Fela really just 
brought me in and just treated me like a 
brother and not only Fela but everyone in the 
band. I would go around and talk and play 
with almost everybody. 
GR: What'syour impression about Afro-beat? 
LB: Yeah! I even wrote an Afro-beat song ... I 
like it. Right after that, I recorded it out of an 
Italian label. It is wonderful man! how black 
people can just take the same four beats and 
turn it around to give an entirely different 
meaning, same four beats but just different 
emphasis. So it was really exciting music. Fela 
was incorporating all these jazz forms, he
was really bringing this music to Nigeria, 
bringing in all his intellect to the music. He 
was always thinking ahead. People up here 
loved him. When he used to come to New 
York I will go up there and play with him. He 
will always shock em he shocked the shit out 
of the New Yorkers... because Fela would be 
playing and all of a sudden bring me up on 
stage... And everyone out there would be 
saying what is he doing up there? What is the 
connection? They are afraid of that connection 
you see. 
GR: It also seems that the younger musicians 
don't even want to make the connection at all. 
LB: Yeah! Yeah! all so technical... you see the 
white man is all so afraid that if we ever get 
our shit together that we are going to seek 
revenge. He has done so much wrong and 
spilled so much blcSod that he thinks that 
everyone is seeking revenge. But you see we 
have been through that with all our great 
civilisations of the past, we are very much 
above that. We do not have the time to be 
thinking about this. I do not have the time to 
hate anybody. He cannot believe that people 
are not interested in revenge and so he does 
not want us to develop. 
GR. What do you think of the newer generation 
of jazz musicians. The so called neotraditionalists? 
LB. They do not even want to acknowledge 
that the music is African. 
GR. Do they have that traditional respect for 
the masters of the past? Do they come over to 
exchange ideas? 
LB. No! No! They don't really come around. 
They are afraid of musicians like myself, they 
are afraid that if they talk to me they might 
loose their contract or something. You see 
these young guys are not doing anything in 
their music. They go back to try to play some 
shit that was' played in America in the 50''s/ 
60's. They talk about trying to revive the 
traditions. They are not reviving anything. 
Music has to be contemporary, it has to be up 
to date. It has to relate to today which is what 
the whole jazz is about. It is not about a 
repertoire, which is what they are saying 
where everybody learns these songs and 
technique and chord. You know! music with 
no soul, how can you play music with no soul. 
Music is soul. 
GR. But they go to the best music schools in the 
world. 
LB. And they are taught by other teachers who 
cannot make it and were never musicians 
themselves. These guys who teach them have 
never spent time on the road, they do not 
know what it is like to have the music, they live 
teaching school, they just work for their salaries 
which is why these young guys don't have 
any voice, they just teach 'em technique, not 
about what the music really means. 
GR: But some are becoming spokesmen for 
the future of jazz. 
LB: I know, yeah! they make them spokesmen. 
You know, Elijah Mohammed used to say that 
if you want to keep people confused, you 
have got to make the bottom the top and the 
top the bottom. So, the most serious, most 
studied musician put them at the bottom. That 
is, the ones that work the hardest and talk 
about the spirit and soul of the music and then 
these young guys that don't know anything 
would be made the spokespersons and this 
goes on in everything. 
GR: Well, which one of these kids moves you 
the most? 
LB: The only one I really like is probably James 
Carter. He has the potential to do other things. 
They did not want to acknowledge him for a 
long time. When he came to New York he 
worked with me in an organ group called The 
New York Organ Ensemble with Amina Myers 
playing organ, Frank Lacy, James Carter and 
myself on the horn, Kelvin Baylor on the guitar 
and Famoudou Don Moye on drums. James 
Carter was just so good and if you keep on 
what you're doing, pretty soon, you will get 
your break which is how it happened for 
James. He got a break because he was so 
much better than these groups that they kept 
on saying were good. You see, that is another 
thing we have to learn, there is just no easy 
way out. As musicians we must learn that if 
we are serious and true to the music the gods 
African Quarterly 
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Vol. 2/No 2 GLENPORA..V.W
will take care of us. We do not have to worry 
about getting this money all the time because 
you still end up getting broke anyway. So life 
is about what you do and who you are and 
what contribution you make. I went to Nigeria 
with no money just as I went to Jamaica before 
that where I lived for two years. Out there I 
used to go to Bob Marley's house, play with 
all the musicians and smoke reefers. It was 
great. 
GR: How many of you make up the Art 
Ensemble of Chicago now? 
LB: There are four of us now, originally five. 
The oldest of us is Malachi Flavors, the bass 
player. Malachi, as matter of fact was seventy 
years old this month (September). In fact, we 
have just finished a European tour and we go 
back again on the 4th of November for 
another European tour. 
GR: So going back again, you seem have a 
better reception out there? 
LB: Oh yeah! You see people like it here, but 
They were black musicians into it, trying to 
develop the music to another level and 
that is what they told us to do. I mean the 
tradition of the music is constant development, 
constant creativity, redevelopment... 
you have to keep on searching. 
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the people in management try to keep us 
away. It is always what they want. But when 
we do play, I mean we played in Seattle just 
a few weeks ago to 3000 people, the whole 
Opera house was completely full. So people 
do want to see us. 
GR: Lester, you have lived and played the 
times in jazz and have probably been around 
to get to know guys like Monk, Coltrane etc. 
What do these musicians leave on a person 
like you? 
LB: You see what we learn from Miles, Trane 
and Monk is to always look ahead. Like with 
Sun Ra, these guys never stood still, they kept 
looking for something else, they kept develop- 
GLENDORA ,....w Vol. 2/No 2 
ing on and on and you see what we did was 
to just keep on from where they left. We just 
utilised all the elements, the African elements 
and every element we could think of but we 
were inspired by guys like Coltrane. You 
know Trane could play the similar song but 
choose to develop something on a higher 
level. 
GR: Were they just playing, did they have an 
understanding of their heritage also? 
LB: Oh no! these guys knew their heritage. 
Coltrane, Monk oh! These guys really understood 
their culture, you ought to see some 
pictures of Charlie Parker in paint. Have you 
ever seen some of these pictures with his face 
painted, African style? They were black musicians 
into it, trying to develop the music to 
another level and that is what they told us to 
do. I mean the tradition of the music is 
constant development, constant creativity, 
redevelopment... you have to keep on searching. 
Which is the problem today all the kids 
are just playing standards, to keep the culture 
the same. If you keep the culture the same you 
can control the people... as long as they can 
control your culture men (That's all they want!! 
GR: So fi nally where is the energy of the next 
movement? 
LB:Things are beginning to happen as we saw 
in the 3000 people at Washington, they 
were looking for something, and wanted to 
have the stuff. You see we are working more 
and more even though we are not with a big 
company/label but over the years we have 
developed a following, so now it is getting to 
the point where we can start doing some 
things we thought about doing years ago. A 
good example is Brass Fantasy which was an 
idea I had thirty years ago, in the '60's but I 
did not get to realise it until the '80's. This 
happens a lot because we do not make 
enough money to really develop the music the 
way we want to. 
GR: What about African-American entrepreneurs? 
Don't they like jazz enough to invest in 
its development? 
LB: That is right, we cannot keep blaming the
white establishment. What about ourselves... but you see we've 
been brainwashed, so that the people that have the money do 
not know anything about these problems. Its very difficult 
because we've been trained to look down on the music. The 
church people look down on the blues, even the black university 
don't want to hear any jazz. The black university look away 
from the music. 
GR: In Nigeria the rich are beginning to invest in musical 
institutions to develop interest primarily in classical music. They 
think this is the right direction to go. 
LB. That's what I mean, the people that have the money are the 
ones that do the wrong things, because they do not have it in 
their heads. They were not exposed to it when they were young, 
they do not have an idea of the importance of black musk, it is 
more trying to be like the white man than anything else. It is funny 
because classical music, in many ways is black music too, as we 
are the ones that invented the scales. Music was not invented in 
Europe, as you know, we were playing music in Africa thousands 
of years before Europe... all musical scales originated 
from Africa and if you ever studied Paul Robeson he used to 
show the connection between Mozart, Beethoven and traditional 
African melodies. I mean I like all kinds of music, to read 
classical music is okay but you must remember that, it is a music 
of a certain period that is gone, which is the same concept they 
are trying to apply to jazz where they are trying to kill it, to make 
it dead. They do not want it to be alive and growing. 
GR: How then do we explain the love of the establishment for 
a man like Miles Davis? 
LB. Well, you see Miles was the man. Miles told them to kiss his 
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ass and that he was going to play this music the way he felt 
Which is the thing that a lot of us learnt from that time. Miles 
would always tell the truth, he was probably the most honest 
person I've ever met... I used to go see him personally, I mean 
I would go to his house and talk for hours. 
GR: Let us talk about Downbeat's No. 1, Wynton Marsalis. Do 
these guys pay respect? 
LB: Huh! You see Wynton is the key. He is the person they use 
to stop the music, he has helped destroy the music. Oh! yeah. 
Now what's happening is that all his younger contemporaries 
are not making any money or making a living or being accepted 
throughout the world because they are not doing anything. The 
only one making any money is Wynton. You see most of the 
world know about music and are waiting for new things to 
happen but these guys are not working. 
GR: Wynton's latest work has just won him the Pulitzer prize. 
What do you think about 'Blood on the Field'? 
LB. Amateur man! That's not writing. I wentto see it in Rome, we 
called it Blood on the stage! Men! its tike college writing, really 
really basic, not advanced at all. How can you win a prize with 
this... you see this is what they do. I know guys that write and 
arrange for a living that are great but nobody knows who they 
are and here this guy comes with his first big project and he 
goddam wins the Pulitzer prize. There is nothing there technically, 
it is like a little imitation Duke, little snatches of Mingus and 
of this and that. If you want to hear some original music go listen 
to Sun Ra or Muhal Richard Abrams... now yeah! they can write, 
you see to me now the Pulitzer prize don't mean shit, I mean half 
the audience in Rome left at the intermission... I had to leave too.